Now in its sixth season, though it might have won over a few (former) F1 drivers, Formula E has yet to convince the majority of F1 fans.

While the all-electric series seeks to win over the sceptics, a Gen3 car scheduled to be introduced in 2022, FIA president, Jean Todt, admits it may be "decades" before the series can give F1 a run for its money in the eyes of race fans.

"You could not envisage to have Formula E substituting Formula 1," he admits. "FE races last three-quarters of an hour at average speeds of up to 118 km/h (73 mph), while F1 races run for more than twice as long, with average speeds more than twice as high over distances in excess of 300 kilometres (186 miles).

"There is not one race car able to do 300 kilometres at Formula 1 speed today," said Todt of electric race series. "It could be decades before it can happen, if it does happen."

Season six, which got underway in Riyadh last month, where Sam Bird (Envision Virgin) and Alexander Sims (BMW) scored victories, sees Mercedes and Porsche entering the fray.

Referring to F1, which went hybrid in 2014, he said: "Today, hybrid is the proper choice. The next step is to see how well we can secure greener fuels."

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1. Posted by Uffen, 02/01/2020 14:33

"Spindoctor: Yes, solid state would be a great leap. That technology, too, would have to overcome issues of material supply (mining), manufacture and disposal. Hopefully, solid state will avoid the flammability issue that plagues Li-Ion.
I've long believed that Mercedes will someday exit F1. History says that all but Ferrari will exit, or at least significantly alter their participation levels. I mean, is Aston-Martin really "in" F1?
The loss of big manufacturers will not alter my appreciation of F1, indeed it may boost it. Dropping fan costs below "top dollar" would certainly appeal! Not sure about Joe Public, I believe that many are too fickle, too busy jumping on bandwagons to be of long-term concern. "

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2. Posted by Spindoctor, 02/01/2020 13:32

"@Uffen
Gasoline (or petrol as we Brits call it) is just a form of energy storage (a 'battery, if you like) , and its energy-density made it sufficiently convenient to overcome other issues of volatility, flammability and the cost of refining it.
Just as I can't predict what will happen to F1, I won't speculate too much about developments in Energy Storage. I should point-out that even the relatively crude Lithium ion cells we use today have seen significant improvements in storage density, reliability and longevity over a relatively short time - there are probably plenty of gains to be made from further development too.
Looking further ahead, many companies (inc VW) claim that they are close to cracking so-called "solid state" storage. These technologies promise vastly greater energy-densities, as well as very fast charge\discharge capability without excessive heat-generation\inefficiency.

Returning to F1, my prognostication is simply that the likes of Renault, Mercedes etc may well leave. Losing their input would immediately return it to the sphere of "garageists" and a radical re-write of technical regs would be needed to accommodate the lack of the technical & financial infrastructure necessary to develop for today's rules.
F1 would likely become similar to IndyCars where without the big multinational's input, the 'glamour' essential to Liberty's ability to charge top dollar to Circuits & Networks would be lost. This may, or may not affect us dyed-in-the-wool fans, but I suspect Joe Public would not be amused...."

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3. Posted by Uffen, 31/12/2019 15:49

"Fusion and anti-matter? You got me there, Max. Yes, if rechargeable batteries are replaced by virtually limitless reactors (for want of a better term) the sky is the limit. NOW we can talk decades!
An interesting perspective: Gasoline is 100% efficient in that if ignited it will all burn - it is the internal combustion engine that lacks efficiency. Electric motors are almost 100% efficient but batteries generate internal heat and that last, what, 20% of their power (capacity) is not able to move a car. So, the efficiencies have swapped places. I am not sure of the overall efficiency numbers but the "6x" factor is not quite what it seems when that last bit of charge is "useless." "

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4. Posted by Max Noble, 30/12/2019 4:25

"@Uffen - In my mind I was thinking of all the engineering challenges that had to be defined and tackled to get from Kitty Hawk to Launch pad... From the phrasing of the original quote I took “decades” to mean “three or more...” - Given the battery technology leaps of the past ten years, I believe another thirty will witness colossal steps forward if science is allowed to continue apace, rather than being mashed by corporate vested interest.
Moore’s Law in semi-conductors has held far longer than anyone ever expected, doubling chip density time and time again... Each doubling considered “impossible” until it happened. Agree current technology will not get us to the energy density of gasoline, but as it is “only” around six-times that of current battery technology I do not think it is an impossible barrier by any means. One need look no further than fission, fusion, and anti-matter to see that Miss Physics has left plenty of headroom between the energy we drag out of gasoline, and total energy liberation... Go the batteries! :-)"

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5. Posted by Uffen, 28/12/2019 18:23

"Max Noble, Todt said it would take decades and you took that as inappropriate by citing aeronautic progress which... took decades? In any case, batteries will hit the glass ceiling of physics. The volume in a battery case can only hold so much matter. In my view, reaching the energy density of liquid gasoline by using solid matter will likely take decades. Some doubt it will ever happen. It will be a fascinating journey nonetheless.

Spindoctor, no one knows what the future holds but F1 had held on with one "full service" manufacturer, Ferrari, for quite some time. Given that in their early days Ferrari was hardly in the same league as Mercedes, Renault, General Motors, Ford, etc. that bodes well for survival. What form "survival" will take is another discussion. Ultimately survival depends on fans. Sponsors depend on fans, teams and circuits (and even governments these days) depend on sponsors. "

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6. Posted by Spindoctor, 27/12/2019 12:44

"Todt is hardly someone whose judgement is that trustworthy these days.
F1 fans are a diminishing breed. The key to Formula E's success will be the participation of manufacturers like Mercedes, Renault, Audi etc. While hardcore F1 fans may be unmoved, as a spectacle, as races Formula E is OK, and to the untutored eye, pretty exciting.
Races are held near, or in cities, and of course they're "green". Formula E is also pretty 'cheap' and appears to have direct relevance to something you can buy at your local dealer. Jaguar or Mercedes' electric tech on display in the race can be seen on an expensive (and hugely profitable) SUV near you, today.
If you're a manufacturer, what's not to like?
Why spend billions of something as chancy & fickle as F1 when for 1/10th (or less) you can have your brand in front of lots of people in Formula E, and actually stand a chance of winning occasionally....?

Formula 1 will soldier-on for as long as the likes of Wolff can convince the Board of Mercedes, Renault & Honda that its worth it. If they drop out I can't see McLaren using a Ferrari motor (for example), and who really cares about the other minor teams?"

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7. Posted by klmn, 24/12/2019 15:26

"the Fe cars are at least more beautiful than the F1 cars."

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8. Posted by crips, 24/12/2019 6:52

"You will note however Max Noble that both Wright Brothers and the first moon landing used combustion engines.
Batteries have been around longer than the combustion engine and yet the problems are still the same:
Low energy density and weight. If formula E would move to hydrogen fuel cell perhaps the safety aspect might be easier to overcome than the limitations of battery energy density."

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9. Posted by Max Noble, 24/12/2019 2:02

"Good job Jean was not in charge of aeronautical progress... it was mere ‘decades’ from the Wright Brothers at Kitty Hawk (first heavier than air powered flight) to first man on moon (that quiet MR Armstrong gentlemen, 1969...).

I think the genius of the automotive world can solve a battery problem in less than ‘decades’... really... yes."

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"Decades" before Formula E can 'match' F1 admits Todt

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